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pameladlloydThis afternoon I attended The Fantastic in Word and Image Author and Artist Workshop, which featured Will Shetterly (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
willshetterly) and Robert E. Vardeman. Moderating, was the fabulously talented Liz Danforth, who is a librarian here and was IMHO, an unadvertised bonus.
The format was very similar to a panel at a con, except that it was four hours ling with a break in the middle and a few snacks on a table in the back of the room.
I arrived late, due to a combination of factors that included a last minute conference with my husband over a trip to the grocery store, construction that required a detour to a different freeway underpass, a train which I handled by a second detour, and then me driving to the wrong location even though I'd checked the address twice and looked at a map, and even though I don't normally confuse the streets Tanque Verde and Golf Links. I might have even managed to get there in time if it hadn't been for going to the wrong place. Despite arriving twenty minutes late, I was greeted with friendly smiles and discreet waves by the people who know me. And as I crept into a seat, a woman sitting a couple of chairs down did a double take. She and I know each other from our involvement in the Society of Technical Writers, but had never discussed our interests in fiction.
Most of the audience were beginning writers, and the basic premise was that they would "hear trade secrets from veteran fantasy, science-fiction and comic book writers and artists." At this point, I'm not sure how many actual secrets there really are, since sff authors and artists are, in my experience, pretty open about the process of creating fiction and getting it published, but our panelists did their best to introduce folks to the basics.
As I walked in, the topic of discussion was outlining. Both Bob and Will favor the use of an informal outline or synopsis. Bob, if I understood this correctly, has always used one, even for short stories. Will, OTOH, came to them more slowly, starting his writing career with a preference for just sitting down and writing. He suggested that people who prefer not to use and outline or synopsis try playing with them and reminded us that if, as the story progresses, you find yourself wanting to deviate from your chosen script that it's okay to do so. Toss it out and write a new one any time you feel like it. Which, as he expressed it, was just common sense, although I have proved myself more than capable of twisting myself into all kinds of knots when attempting to follow an outline. (And, what do I think I'm doing when I use a fairy tale as the basis for a story, after all? Perhaps, my difficulty with outlines is all psychological and if I can think of them from a more relaxed position they can become a useful tool, instead of yet one more barrier.)
The discussion segued neatly into plotting. I had a little trouble with taking notes and focusing on what was being said at the same time (obviously, my super-student skills are fading), but IIRC Will mentioned that there were three different "plots" that are all active in a story: 1) the action plot (I think this is the one most of us are familiar with), 2) the relationship plot or story, and 3) the transformation plot or story. Will used O'Henry's "Gift of the Magi" as an example. In the action plot, we have a young couple who buy each other Christmas gifts. (Will said this better, but I think you get the point.) In the relationship story, we have newlyweds who don't yet know each other as well as they think they do, so each sacrifices something they value and which the other wants to honor, in order to get the money for the gifts, in the process bringing their love for each other into greater focus. In the transformation story, each of the characters grows just a little. It is the interaction of the three plot-types which give us a satisfactory story. Had only the action plot occurred, without the other two, the story would not have worked.
Bob commented that the action plot keeps him on script and helps him to avoid straying off on unproductive sidelines, but he thinks he would be very uncomfortable trying to plot out the relationship and transformation aspects of the story in advance, as he prefers to "discover" them in the writing of the action story; that's where his satisfaction as a writer comes in.
At one point, and it may actually have been at a different moment in the workshop, but I think it fits here well, Liz told us a story about her ex-husband, Mike, who is also a writer. Once while traveling abroad, they were asked to declare the purpose of their visit. "Business, or pleasure?" the guard asked. "Pleasure," they replied. But, looking at their passports, the guard responded to Mike, "No. You writers are always working." Liz went on to tell us that this was very true of Mike. Even when he wasn't sitting at a keyboard, he was always thinking about his writing. When he finally sat down to write, his fingers would fly over the keyboard like crazy, as if he were "channeling" the story, but what was really happening was that he had the complete story in his head, ready to be told.
I'd like to pause at this point to get your thoughts on outlining, plotting, and story arcs. When you're writing, do you like to use an outline or synopsis? If you don't, is it possible that you're doing a lot of this work in your head? Have you ever tried working (playing?) with plots other than the action plot?
I'll try to get the ball rolling by responding to my own questions.
In many ways, I think the act of writing is one of discovery for me. On some level, my stories are about real people in some alternate universe. As I start a story, I may have had a revelation that lets me see the story complete, or I may have had only a tiny glimpse of that other universe, Writing the story of that other universe is the act of peeling away the veils that exist between my mind and that other place, until I've got a clear vision.
I've tried working with outlines and synopses for longer works, but I haven't found them helpful. With one story in particular, I've tried both outlines and synopses, but never found a story that jelled for me. I started the process when I was already stalled on the project, so that may have been part of it, but every time I tried to choose a direction for the path I thought the story should take, I found myself uncomfortable, as if I was trying to shoehorn something of one shape into another; they just didn't fit together well. So, all that work on synopsis wound up feeling like wasted time that created a barrier, instead of providing the means of getting the story moving again.
I've made other attempts at planning novels out ahead of time, but I've never yet had a method that involved an outline or synposis work. This is one of the reasons I've shifted to short stories. With short stories, the way I work is a little different each time. Some of my stories come to me more or less complete, or get worked out in my head, so that, like Mike, by the time I sit down to work on them, everything's done except putting the words on paper and polishing them a bit. Some of my stories rise out of dreams; these may be easy, or they may be incredibly difficult, asking me to confront demons both figurative and, in the context of the story, real. Some of my stories start with a character, a feeling, an idea, a sentence, or a vision, and grow slowly; these may have percolated for years before I write them--one of my stories started with a sentence, which lived in a file for ten years, until the day I suddenly decided it was ripe, at which point it also flowed, although each word and sentence on the page felt like a new discovery. These can be some of the hardest to write, some of the slowest to germinate.
I've never tried working with any plot other than the action plot. Although I've been aware of the concept that each story has multiple things going on, I don't think I'd come across the idea of trying to plot the relationship and transformation stories separately from the action story. I'm not sure I'd be any better at a relationship or transformation plot than I am at an action plot.
Hmm. Unless I pare the concept of plot down to the very barest of skeletons. Because that novel I started so long ago? The one that never has let me go, even though I've tried to let it go? Well, I think I know the transformation arc for that one. My POV character needs to grow from a frightened codependent in an abusive relationship and to become someone who is capable of taking control of her life. And I know this happens when the life she knows and the lives of her children are threatened by Faerie and it is only by taking chances and standing up to some very frightening beings that she discovers she has the strength not only to save her children but to take care of herself as well. Which is why I've rejected suggestions from others that my fantasy novel was actually a horror story, or a romance. No, by all the gods, this isn't a story in which a reaffirmation of the marriage is a happy ending. There. Did I just write a transformation arc? One that touches on a relationship arc? (Has anyone noticed that I've dropped the word plot and substituted arc? Because that works better for me. It's a guide, but lacks the detail of that line on the map--you know the one I mean, the line that starts at point A and goes to point B using the minimum number of twists and turns. Neither shortest distance, nor shortest time, seem wanted here.)
willshetterly) and Robert E. Vardeman. Moderating, was the fabulously talented Liz Danforth, who is a librarian here and was IMHO, an unadvertised bonus.The format was very similar to a panel at a con, except that it was four hours ling with a break in the middle and a few snacks on a table in the back of the room.
I arrived late, due to a combination of factors that included a last minute conference with my husband over a trip to the grocery store, construction that required a detour to a different freeway underpass, a train which I handled by a second detour, and then me driving to the wrong location even though I'd checked the address twice and looked at a map, and even though I don't normally confuse the streets Tanque Verde and Golf Links. I might have even managed to get there in time if it hadn't been for going to the wrong place. Despite arriving twenty minutes late, I was greeted with friendly smiles and discreet waves by the people who know me. And as I crept into a seat, a woman sitting a couple of chairs down did a double take. She and I know each other from our involvement in the Society of Technical Writers, but had never discussed our interests in fiction.
Most of the audience were beginning writers, and the basic premise was that they would "hear trade secrets from veteran fantasy, science-fiction and comic book writers and artists." At this point, I'm not sure how many actual secrets there really are, since sff authors and artists are, in my experience, pretty open about the process of creating fiction and getting it published, but our panelists did their best to introduce folks to the basics.
As I walked in, the topic of discussion was outlining. Both Bob and Will favor the use of an informal outline or synopsis. Bob, if I understood this correctly, has always used one, even for short stories. Will, OTOH, came to them more slowly, starting his writing career with a preference for just sitting down and writing. He suggested that people who prefer not to use and outline or synopsis try playing with them and reminded us that if, as the story progresses, you find yourself wanting to deviate from your chosen script that it's okay to do so. Toss it out and write a new one any time you feel like it. Which, as he expressed it, was just common sense, although I have proved myself more than capable of twisting myself into all kinds of knots when attempting to follow an outline. (And, what do I think I'm doing when I use a fairy tale as the basis for a story, after all? Perhaps, my difficulty with outlines is all psychological and if I can think of them from a more relaxed position they can become a useful tool, instead of yet one more barrier.)
The discussion segued neatly into plotting. I had a little trouble with taking notes and focusing on what was being said at the same time (obviously, my super-student skills are fading), but IIRC Will mentioned that there were three different "plots" that are all active in a story: 1) the action plot (I think this is the one most of us are familiar with), 2) the relationship plot or story, and 3) the transformation plot or story. Will used O'Henry's "Gift of the Magi" as an example. In the action plot, we have a young couple who buy each other Christmas gifts. (Will said this better, but I think you get the point.) In the relationship story, we have newlyweds who don't yet know each other as well as they think they do, so each sacrifices something they value and which the other wants to honor, in order to get the money for the gifts, in the process bringing their love for each other into greater focus. In the transformation story, each of the characters grows just a little. It is the interaction of the three plot-types which give us a satisfactory story. Had only the action plot occurred, without the other two, the story would not have worked.
Bob commented that the action plot keeps him on script and helps him to avoid straying off on unproductive sidelines, but he thinks he would be very uncomfortable trying to plot out the relationship and transformation aspects of the story in advance, as he prefers to "discover" them in the writing of the action story; that's where his satisfaction as a writer comes in.
At one point, and it may actually have been at a different moment in the workshop, but I think it fits here well, Liz told us a story about her ex-husband, Mike, who is also a writer. Once while traveling abroad, they were asked to declare the purpose of their visit. "Business, or pleasure?" the guard asked. "Pleasure," they replied. But, looking at their passports, the guard responded to Mike, "No. You writers are always working." Liz went on to tell us that this was very true of Mike. Even when he wasn't sitting at a keyboard, he was always thinking about his writing. When he finally sat down to write, his fingers would fly over the keyboard like crazy, as if he were "channeling" the story, but what was really happening was that he had the complete story in his head, ready to be told.
I'd like to pause at this point to get your thoughts on outlining, plotting, and story arcs. When you're writing, do you like to use an outline or synopsis? If you don't, is it possible that you're doing a lot of this work in your head? Have you ever tried working (playing?) with plots other than the action plot?
I'll try to get the ball rolling by responding to my own questions.
In many ways, I think the act of writing is one of discovery for me. On some level, my stories are about real people in some alternate universe. As I start a story, I may have had a revelation that lets me see the story complete, or I may have had only a tiny glimpse of that other universe, Writing the story of that other universe is the act of peeling away the veils that exist between my mind and that other place, until I've got a clear vision.
I've tried working with outlines and synopses for longer works, but I haven't found them helpful. With one story in particular, I've tried both outlines and synopses, but never found a story that jelled for me. I started the process when I was already stalled on the project, so that may have been part of it, but every time I tried to choose a direction for the path I thought the story should take, I found myself uncomfortable, as if I was trying to shoehorn something of one shape into another; they just didn't fit together well. So, all that work on synopsis wound up feeling like wasted time that created a barrier, instead of providing the means of getting the story moving again.
I've made other attempts at planning novels out ahead of time, but I've never yet had a method that involved an outline or synposis work. This is one of the reasons I've shifted to short stories. With short stories, the way I work is a little different each time. Some of my stories come to me more or less complete, or get worked out in my head, so that, like Mike, by the time I sit down to work on them, everything's done except putting the words on paper and polishing them a bit. Some of my stories rise out of dreams; these may be easy, or they may be incredibly difficult, asking me to confront demons both figurative and, in the context of the story, real. Some of my stories start with a character, a feeling, an idea, a sentence, or a vision, and grow slowly; these may have percolated for years before I write them--one of my stories started with a sentence, which lived in a file for ten years, until the day I suddenly decided it was ripe, at which point it also flowed, although each word and sentence on the page felt like a new discovery. These can be some of the hardest to write, some of the slowest to germinate.
I've never tried working with any plot other than the action plot. Although I've been aware of the concept that each story has multiple things going on, I don't think I'd come across the idea of trying to plot the relationship and transformation stories separately from the action story. I'm not sure I'd be any better at a relationship or transformation plot than I am at an action plot.
Hmm. Unless I pare the concept of plot down to the very barest of skeletons. Because that novel I started so long ago? The one that never has let me go, even though I've tried to let it go? Well, I think I know the transformation arc for that one. My POV character needs to grow from a frightened codependent in an abusive relationship and to become someone who is capable of taking control of her life. And I know this happens when the life she knows and the lives of her children are threatened by Faerie and it is only by taking chances and standing up to some very frightening beings that she discovers she has the strength not only to save her children but to take care of herself as well. Which is why I've rejected suggestions from others that my fantasy novel was actually a horror story, or a romance. No, by all the gods, this isn't a story in which a reaffirmation of the marriage is a happy ending. There. Did I just write a transformation arc? One that touches on a relationship arc? (Has anyone noticed that I've dropped the word plot and substituted arc? Because that works better for me. It's a guide, but lacks the detail of that line on the map--you know the one I mean, the line that starts at point A and goes to point B using the minimum number of twists and turns. Neither shortest distance, nor shortest time, seem wanted here.)
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 12:13 pm (UTC)What this means is I check over my outline only every now and then, rather than try to religously stick to it. Then I make every word I've written justify itself if I've gone past several outline points, without actually reaching them lol.
Of course, I also have dossiers on my characters. I know them as people in their own right, friends, and enemies. A lot of the information in my dossiers never make it into a story, if a character is in their 50s, on a different planet, and fighting other causes, does the reader need to know where they went to Primary School? No, but I do.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 10:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:05 pm (UTC)Sorry to hear about the brain injury. The coping mechanism, though, is a brilliant one.
(The icon is by her, not me...)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 01:47 pm (UTC)Try thinking of the transformation arc in terms of theme - most stories have a theme they explore, whether intended or otherwise. That theme affects both the action plot and the emotional plot, and should probably lead to growth of the character(s). Or at least that's how I do it!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:38 pm (UTC)I think I really need to drag out one of my longer works very soon. And the one I mentioned in the post above is, in addition to the one screaming the loudest to be written, the one that requires the least research. Now, if I could just figure out why event x, which starts the whole thing rolling, occurs, I might be able to make some progress.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:45 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:55 pm (UTC)Event X is the theft of one of the protags children by the fairies/fay/sidhe (by whatever name you want to call them). Which could conceivably be left to the basic tradition that says human children are stolen either because they are incredibly rare, or because they make good servants. But, that latter reason only makes sense to me when an older person is stolen, or lured into Faerie, and the first leaves me wondering: Why this child? Why this family? So those last are really the crucial questions.
I've played with several different options, none of which has quite worked out and one of which sparked an idea that might result in a family saga over several centuries. But, the more I've played with the core idea of that one, the more it's diverged in ways that would not easily bring me back to this story. (I've mentioned elsewhere recently that I'm very good at complicating things. Even, I will add, when it's simplification that's needed.)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:23 pm (UTC)*sigh* So many books, so little time.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:27 pm (UTC)Maybe I'll just have to send you snippets of it by e-mail :D
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:53 pm (UTC)As far as why a child might be taken to make a good servant...you start training obedient dogs when they're puppies.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 12:14 am (UTC)In many ways this is true. I know my protag's emotional interior, but have not quite settled on all the little details that will make her most real. I've even struggled with her name. She was Karen in one draft, Lydia in another. And names are very important to me; when I discover her true name, it will mean I know who she is, and I suspect that the reverse is true, as well. So, I need to know too, who stole the child.
This is all very interesting. I've written several chapters of this story and agonized over it off and on for years. It's been workshopped and reviewed by professional authors and I've never answered these questions. Which doesn't mean no one ever asked them, just that I managed to avoid them, one way or another. Maybe the story is only just beginning to ripen, or maybe you just ask good questions. :)
Thanks!
There are two antagonists, one in the "real" world, and one in Faerie: her husband, and the king of the fay. The king may not be the one who did the deed, or ordered it done, but it is he who will arbitrate the fate of the protag and her children.
As far as why a child might be taken to make a good servant...you start training obedient dogs when they're puppies.
You know, you're right. And, while I kept thinking that raising an infant is a lot of work, this is the sort of thing that would be handed off to another servant. So, yes, I can see why infants might be stolen to become servants. After all, if you have an extended lifetime, those few years will seem a short wait.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 12:21 am (UTC)So, in what fashion are the two related? Because clearly they are.
Perhaps not knowing the protag's name is a sign that it's not her name that's the part of her identity that's important - what's important to the story is what she is, not who?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 12:29 am (UTC)As for the identity of the protag, I think the name is important, maybe not so much for who she is, but for my understanding of who she is. Lydia didn't work for me as a name at all. I can't even remember why I thought it might.
That's okay. I'll figure it out, now, I think. I'm feeling much more confident of this story at the moment. (Which may be a fleeting feeling, but should be enough to get me started again. And I do think I've learned a few things about writing in the eighteen years or so since I first started this novel, so I can hope that will help me to get over a few of the hurdles that daunted me before.
Thanks for your help. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 12:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 03:57 pm (UTC)Relationship/emotional arcs I tend to do in my head, by feel, then scribble down as notes so I don't forget them (though actually I don't ever forget). I do need to know those aspects up front or I can't get the novel to progress at all.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:49 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 08:10 pm (UTC)I don't think you can get that sort of detail from a synopsis -- at least I can't, therefore they're useful, but only up to a point.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 08:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 04:08 pm (UTC)For years I didn't have a chance to write anything down, ever at all, so stories lived only in my head. I'd work them out, long complicated ones, and tell myself bits at a time. Because they were only in my head, and therefore only for me, I could play endlessly with certain scenes. And yet, that wasn't all I did; I'd also advance the plot... and some stories I'd abandon--even though I wasn't writing them down, so technically there was nothing to abandon--because I was dissatisfied with elements of plot or theme.
It was a real joy to be able to start writing stories down again, although I was super rusty.
Anyway, I do most of my plotting in my head, as a consequence of that habit from before. Sometimes I'll make notes in the document about things I want to remember to do in what's coming up, but that's all. Still, it's all subject to change.
I love reading about other people's methods, even if I don't adopt them. I like
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 08:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:00 pm (UTC)That's a great list; I liked this one: My characters will not all have the same nervous gesture.
And I'd the corollary, Don't even let the one character use the nervous gesture too many times....
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:32 pm (UTC)We need to know what usually works and what doesn't, but part of learning the rules (and I hate even calling these rules, to tell you the truth), and we need to know when to break them.
Experience, critiquers*, and discovering our own voice all come into play here.
* Do you know, critiquers doesn't seem to be in the dictionary. I wish I knew how to submit words to dictionary committees, because I've been using that for years. (Unless the spelling doesn't retain the base word critique?)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:39 pm (UTC)And to your point, sure, I guess we can break them too (and yeah, they're not rules the way "don't run a red light" is a rule...), if the way we break them works for readers.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:41 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:34 pm (UTC)I will not insert sex scenes, battle scenes, meetings or otherwise monotonously placed events simply to achieve my target word count every day.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 10:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 08:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-30 03:05 am (UTC)I did do it once, but didn't finish in one month--finished, let's see, about six months later? That one is still trunked for now as I need to make a few revisions and haven't gotten around to it.
Yeah... about the only good thing about it is the sense of camaraderie, writing with other people. But I get that through just talking with people like you, so I don't think I'll do it again.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-30 04:06 am (UTC)I've also found LJ to be a great way to connect with other writers and to feel supported in my writing. Now, if I could just learn to speed blog. ;>
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 09:29 pm (UTC)Yes, I think that even during times I'm not physically writing, I'm still playing with stories in my head. Trying to figure out what needs to be in the story and how the scenes fit together, even playing with wording. I'm glad you're finding such joy in writing again.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:02 pm (UTC)it's a blessing!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-28 11:35 pm (UTC)outline
Date: 2008-09-28 06:01 pm (UTC)Once upon a time I would venture into the wilds without one, but then the story had a distressing tendency to die on me.
As a consequence, now, when I set out into wilds, I am merely blazing the trail the story will follow. Once it reaches a destination, even if not the destination I had thought, I go back and put in the trail.
Sure, sometimes I have to diverge from the path, and subplot tend to sprout in the actual first draft -- or later -- but this way I escape stacks of unfinished stories.
Re: outline
Date: 2008-09-28 09:23 pm (UTC)I need to play with outlines more, or synopses, or story arcs, or maps, or whatever term will work for me without getting me in a muddle.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 01:00 am (UTC)Oh, it sounds like I'm a lot like Mike.
I generally work for awhile without a plan. I like to feel things out, play with characters and events. I take a lot of notes too, but that isn't quite the same as charting things out. Later, perhaps after a very rough cut, I go back and tighten things up with a synopsis.
Of course, that's the point where it all goes whopperjawed and crashes. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-29 06:42 am (UTC)Oh, I like that word. If not the feeling. :/
I think a lot of us are like Mike in terms of how we work. Now, if we could just learn to be as successful as he is.